I read this book for the first time about 19 years ago and read it again 3 years show. It never lost its luster for me and it’s hands down the most influential sci-fi book I read in my life.
I had the chance in this life to live through communism and capitalism. No form of social organization is perfect. I’m critical of both, especially communism. I also don’t think that we can reach utopia. There’s a dystopia in each utopia. We should work towards a healthy worldview that is not destructive and exploitative of the world around us and other beings including human beings.
One of the biggest lessons from Dune is that if you exploit and push people to such extremes they will have no choice but to fight back. Sometimes that fight can take the shape of a holly war. Extremes lead to extremes. I love it that Frank Herbert left it open for everyone to extract their own conclusions.
I'm glad you lived through communism and came out the other side to talk about it! I agree there is no perfect answer, or single system that will solve all of our troubles. I think utopian visions get us thinking, envisioning a better future, but we have to learn to live within the imperfection and compromise. I read somewhere that Herbert was a big proponent of limited terms in government, and I feel the same because it prohibits a consolidation of power. I don't think any office held should be a life term, and that would help with some of our issues.
I always get a laugh when some studio tries to make a Dune Movie.
It's not a traditional story, like you said, it's more of a history.
I read something different into it. What I got out of it was that no matter how powerful you are, there's always some speck of (spice) dust that can stop you dead in your tracks.
I still use the “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.” quote from time to time.
That's also a difficulty with the Lord of the Rings movies. They completely miss the meta fiction aspect of the original story. I haven't seen the Hobbit movies, but I don't get the impression there was any attempt to adapt the situation with the different versions of Riddles in the Dark.
At least Jackson was honest. He said that he had to leave some things out and he had to create a character to stand in for Sauron. But you're right, some books just can't be made into movies.
I do wonder if a Princess Bride (movie) type framing device would work for translating other works with meta fiction, since I haven't read it but recall hearing the Princess Bride book also had some meta fiction in it. Frame The Hobbit movies as Bilbo telling a young Frodo about his adventure, and have Bilbo tell the original version of Riddles in the Dark before confessing what really happened.
Jul 20, 2023·edited Jul 20, 2023Liked by Brian Reindel 👾⚔️
It's hard to argue with Jackson's LOTR's choices; but I still missed Tom Bombadil and the Scouring of the Shire. I get why they weren't necessary for the movies, but *still*... :-)
That's a great take, Joseph. Many of us have our own scarce resources that both give us strength, but then can be a cause of our weakness or downfall. Spice is addicting as well, which is a cautionary tale of sorts. Arrakis is such a great world!
Good review. The book itself follows a typical narrative pattern or archetypal story structure commonly found in myths, legends, and heroic tales, which is known as "The Hero's Journey." This concept was popularized by the American mythologist Joseph Campbell in his book "The Hero with a Thousand Faces."
Additionally, the book draws inspiration from Islamic themes and imagery from the Islamic world and the Middle East. Frank Herbert incorporates Middle Eastern languages, particularly Arabic, throughout his novels. It's worth noting that the term "Mahdi" (The Guided One) refers to al-lmam al-Mahdi Muhammad Ahmad, a Sudanese rebellion leader from the 19th century.
It's been years since I read the Dune books - I had all of them at one point but made the mistake of lending a couple and never got them back. The thing that still sticks with me years later is both the hugeness of the time span covered and the 'messiness' of the people and agenda and events involved. I never looked for a purpose or a message in those books, but you learn something different about the complexity of humanity with every read. Awesome writing.
Thanks for reading and commenting, Beverley! Somewhere I read it's like forty-thousand years that covers the whole expanse of time across all of the books. Maybe I'm misremembering, but it sounded like a long time. 😁
I've spoken with some others who have read Dune, but none of the follow up books. Any thoughts on whether it's worth it to read them?
I absolutely recommend reading the entire series of books, even the final two by Herbert’s son. I don’t understand the hate for them tbh. Some are better than others, as you’d expect, but complete story is so satisfying in the end.
One of my only regrets about Dune is that I cannot read it for the first time again, and the second regret was not reading it as soon as I got my first copy as a gift, all those years ago.
I enjoyed this reminder about what readers bring to a story, and how they read in-between the lines, interpret, and take meaning from those lines. One of the unexpected takeaways was a reminder about human nature's constancy. Regardless of the environment or systems created, destroyed, and recreated, even with the transformation of a person or a world into more, there are trade-offs.
Thanks for the comment, Edward! I plan to read it again in the near future. Now that I've written the review, had feedback from others, and understand it better, I just want to sit back and read it with a relaxed, fresh perspective. There's a benefit in doing that. Right now, I'm listening to Mistborn as an audiobook, and plan to make my way through that series first. A future review. 😁
I think about how many readers out there, who weren't much older than young Paul Atriedes when they discovered Dune, and how they would "see" the book again, a few years later, older, and what they would think of someone who became the Kwisatz Haderach. It was interesting observation about Paul being almost a vessel but he hadn't had the years and mileage of the other characters, and their inner lives driving them. Looking forward to your review, I'm late to Sanderson, and want to spend time on his youtube of his writing class.
I can't imagine reading Dune at age 15. I'm not sure I would have had the wherewithal to really understand or appreciate it. Although it would have been interesting to have been recommended it and try just so I could know what my young self would have thought.
I'm late to Sanderson as well. Mistborn will be my first series of his. Definitely watch his YouTube series of the writing class. Absolutely wonderful. I watched it at 1.75 speed and it made it even better. 😁
Jul 20, 2023·edited Jul 20, 2023Liked by Brian Reindel 👾⚔️
What a fine review. Thank you for it.
Like many of my friends at the time, the first time I read the Chronicles (all 6) was in high school. I re-read it again as a young man, again in middle-age, and I’ve re-sampled many sections of it ever since.
I regard it like LOTR (or The Beatles in popular music). Even it if isn’t to one’s particular taste, it should still be regarded as the work of an all-time Master that re-defined their own art form. Fortunately, like you, I really enjoy it. It’s weird to think that the series concluded nearly forty years ago.
Funny story—I was in a virtual book club a few years back and someone said “Yeah, I’ve read all twenty-three Dune books.” and my reaction was visceral. I felt like I’d said I’d been to Woodstock and that person asked me: “Really? Which one?” I mean, I didn’t say anything, but wanted to chime in—no no no, that’s a category error, dude. The last 17 books were all reportedly based on a couple posthumous pages of scribbled notes…that’s not Dune. That’s…marketing.
(FTR, personally, in that lane, I DO LIKE the Silmarillion. But, I think it’s self-evident that it closely followed the world-building that Tolkien had laid out. And no one tried to pretty it up. It was *truly* chronicling, lol. And J.R.R. was reportedly a voluminous note-taker So, it all tracked for me.)
The main complaint about Dune I’ve heard (from many younger readers) is how they’re put off by the omniscient POV. It’s maybe worth noting that genre-bending and omniscient/experimental story-telling was more the norm in the Golden Era of SF. So that was the fertile soil in which Tolkien and Herbert planted their works.
Nowadays, modern readers have been conditioned to only accept a very narrow story-telling style (shifting 3POV). For example, one promotion I participated in earlier this year listed “first-person” as a sub-genre. A SUB-GENRE! (lol)
Thanks for reading Mark, and for the great feedback!
The shifting 3POV is a style that I have come to dislike because it spends so much time skimming the surface for a multitude of characters instead of giving me the deepest of dives into one or two characters. Unfortunately, that's the M.O. for contemporary science fiction and fantasy. First person nescient is the most powerful for a character driven story, and my favorite, but extremely difficult to write for speculative works.
I started Dune once back in college and didn't finish; I really need to get going on it again, as I do have the whole set now. I take his point about the dangers of the superhero, although that's awkward for me since my primary genre is superhero fic, except for the angel stories. Hm.
As superheroes are regarded, Paul is a bit of an anomaly. However, all superheroes today follow a similar path and are essentially all powerful. There are no real stakes and it's one reason I loathe modern takes on Superman. Generally, I don't mind the concept of superheroes, but I find that movies like Chronicle or Brightburn, which aim to explore a deeper, human response to gaining superpowers better serve the genre. If you have recommendations for books or stories like those, I would love to hear them.
Dr. Horrible's Sing-along Blog, maybe? That's the only one I can think of offhand, aside from the animated films Red Son and Injustice, which are really alternate takes on Superman (Superman in the USSR, Superman going rogue, etc.).
I might need to think on this and write something myself. Hmm.
I started reading Dune about 8 years ago and stopped at around the time of Paul and Jessica's flight to the desert. Maybe perhaps because I didn't like the chronicling nature of the story (although I did love the chapter epigraphs and use them in my own books).
Going into the movie 2 years ago, I thought "at least I will get to see the rest of the story," not realizing that Part 1 meant they would stop just a bit farther than I got when reading. Those expectations aside, I enjoyed it more than reading the book.
There is a lull in the middle in the section you're talking about that drags some. The story does have some balance issues in that regard. The last 50 pages were as deep as the entire previous 500, and toward the end I thought there was no way Herbert could wrap it up, but he does.
I started watching the most recent Dune Part 1 as well, but I didn't like the actors who played Paul and Jessica. They gravelly whisper a lot of lines and it just didn't do it for me.
This reminds me I ought to reread Dune. I had intended on reading the first three books but got sidetracked (so it goes when I have a million books on my TBR...) But the first book is phenomenal, and your review is spot-on.
Also, there was a Dune game, came out in the early 2000s. It was terrible. I think there were others that were less bad, but that game in particular was no good. I don't even remember the name of it.
When I mentioned the game, I did go looking and found the same one. It does look terrible. 🤣 I can imagine though that a game where one could use spice to travel to worlds like Giedi Prime or Caladin would be pretty sweet!
I first read the original Dune in the mid 1970s and loved it. I have read it several times since. I still love it, but not quite as much as the first time I read it.
It's interesting how our station in life can affect how we receive a book. I've got a few from my childhood like that, where they don't land like they used to, but still have a special place in my heart.
That’s a great, in-depth review. I was unfamiliar with those quotes from Herbert. I have yet to read the follow up books to Dune, but that will happen. The audiobook version of Dune is an excellent production.
I appreciate that you list off the parts you didn't like in a way where I could go 'that sounds perfect for me.' A lot of this reminds me of Lord of the Rings in the framing as a history and the dangers of power. Should read Dune sometime.
With my own setting I've engaged with similar themes, in particular with the dragons. Complete with one of them rejecting suggestions of becoming padishah because he thinks having an immortal monarch is inherently dangerous.
Thanks, William. From reading your fiction and story framing devices on The Warthog Report, I think you would really enjoy Dune. It's one of those strange concoctions that is listed as science fiction and has futuristic elements, but reads almost entirely like a fantasy novel. It's another part of its allure that I didn't mention in the review, but that I quite enjoyed.
I read this book for the first time about 19 years ago and read it again 3 years show. It never lost its luster for me and it’s hands down the most influential sci-fi book I read in my life.
I had the chance in this life to live through communism and capitalism. No form of social organization is perfect. I’m critical of both, especially communism. I also don’t think that we can reach utopia. There’s a dystopia in each utopia. We should work towards a healthy worldview that is not destructive and exploitative of the world around us and other beings including human beings.
One of the biggest lessons from Dune is that if you exploit and push people to such extremes they will have no choice but to fight back. Sometimes that fight can take the shape of a holly war. Extremes lead to extremes. I love it that Frank Herbert left it open for everyone to extract their own conclusions.
I'm glad you lived through communism and came out the other side to talk about it! I agree there is no perfect answer, or single system that will solve all of our troubles. I think utopian visions get us thinking, envisioning a better future, but we have to learn to live within the imperfection and compromise. I read somewhere that Herbert was a big proponent of limited terms in government, and I feel the same because it prohibits a consolidation of power. I don't think any office held should be a life term, and that would help with some of our issues.
I always get a laugh when some studio tries to make a Dune Movie.
It's not a traditional story, like you said, it's more of a history.
I read something different into it. What I got out of it was that no matter how powerful you are, there's always some speck of (spice) dust that can stop you dead in your tracks.
I still use the “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.” quote from time to time.
That's also a difficulty with the Lord of the Rings movies. They completely miss the meta fiction aspect of the original story. I haven't seen the Hobbit movies, but I don't get the impression there was any attempt to adapt the situation with the different versions of Riddles in the Dark.
At least Jackson was honest. He said that he had to leave some things out and he had to create a character to stand in for Sauron. But you're right, some books just can't be made into movies.
I do wonder if a Princess Bride (movie) type framing device would work for translating other works with meta fiction, since I haven't read it but recall hearing the Princess Bride book also had some meta fiction in it. Frame The Hobbit movies as Bilbo telling a young Frodo about his adventure, and have Bilbo tell the original version of Riddles in the Dark before confessing what really happened.
It's hard to argue with Jackson's LOTR's choices; but I still missed Tom Bombadil and the Scouring of the Shire. I get why they weren't necessary for the movies, but *still*... :-)
That's a great take, Joseph. Many of us have our own scarce resources that both give us strength, but then can be a cause of our weakness or downfall. Spice is addicting as well, which is a cautionary tale of sorts. Arrakis is such a great world!
Good review. The book itself follows a typical narrative pattern or archetypal story structure commonly found in myths, legends, and heroic tales, which is known as "The Hero's Journey." This concept was popularized by the American mythologist Joseph Campbell in his book "The Hero with a Thousand Faces."
Additionally, the book draws inspiration from Islamic themes and imagery from the Islamic world and the Middle East. Frank Herbert incorporates Middle Eastern languages, particularly Arabic, throughout his novels. It's worth noting that the term "Mahdi" (The Guided One) refers to al-lmam al-Mahdi Muhammad Ahmad, a Sudanese rebellion leader from the 19th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdist_War Nevertheless, it's a great book.
Thanks for reading and for the additional info, Nenad!
It's been years since I read the Dune books - I had all of them at one point but made the mistake of lending a couple and never got them back. The thing that still sticks with me years later is both the hugeness of the time span covered and the 'messiness' of the people and agenda and events involved. I never looked for a purpose or a message in those books, but you learn something different about the complexity of humanity with every read. Awesome writing.
Thanks for reading and commenting, Beverley! Somewhere I read it's like forty-thousand years that covers the whole expanse of time across all of the books. Maybe I'm misremembering, but it sounded like a long time. 😁
I've spoken with some others who have read Dune, but none of the follow up books. Any thoughts on whether it's worth it to read them?
I absolutely recommend reading the entire series of books, even the final two by Herbert’s son. I don’t understand the hate for them tbh. Some are better than others, as you’d expect, but complete story is so satisfying in the end.
Thank you for letting me know, Yardena!
One of my only regrets about Dune is that I cannot read it for the first time again, and the second regret was not reading it as soon as I got my first copy as a gift, all those years ago.
I enjoyed this reminder about what readers bring to a story, and how they read in-between the lines, interpret, and take meaning from those lines. One of the unexpected takeaways was a reminder about human nature's constancy. Regardless of the environment or systems created, destroyed, and recreated, even with the transformation of a person or a world into more, there are trade-offs.
Thanks for the comment, Edward! I plan to read it again in the near future. Now that I've written the review, had feedback from others, and understand it better, I just want to sit back and read it with a relaxed, fresh perspective. There's a benefit in doing that. Right now, I'm listening to Mistborn as an audiobook, and plan to make my way through that series first. A future review. 😁
I think about how many readers out there, who weren't much older than young Paul Atriedes when they discovered Dune, and how they would "see" the book again, a few years later, older, and what they would think of someone who became the Kwisatz Haderach. It was interesting observation about Paul being almost a vessel but he hadn't had the years and mileage of the other characters, and their inner lives driving them. Looking forward to your review, I'm late to Sanderson, and want to spend time on his youtube of his writing class.
I can't imagine reading Dune at age 15. I'm not sure I would have had the wherewithal to really understand or appreciate it. Although it would have been interesting to have been recommended it and try just so I could know what my young self would have thought.
I'm late to Sanderson as well. Mistborn will be my first series of his. Definitely watch his YouTube series of the writing class. Absolutely wonderful. I watched it at 1.75 speed and it made it even better. 😁
What a fine review. Thank you for it.
Like many of my friends at the time, the first time I read the Chronicles (all 6) was in high school. I re-read it again as a young man, again in middle-age, and I’ve re-sampled many sections of it ever since.
I regard it like LOTR (or The Beatles in popular music). Even it if isn’t to one’s particular taste, it should still be regarded as the work of an all-time Master that re-defined their own art form. Fortunately, like you, I really enjoy it. It’s weird to think that the series concluded nearly forty years ago.
Funny story—I was in a virtual book club a few years back and someone said “Yeah, I’ve read all twenty-three Dune books.” and my reaction was visceral. I felt like I’d said I’d been to Woodstock and that person asked me: “Really? Which one?” I mean, I didn’t say anything, but wanted to chime in—no no no, that’s a category error, dude. The last 17 books were all reportedly based on a couple posthumous pages of scribbled notes…that’s not Dune. That’s…marketing.
(FTR, personally, in that lane, I DO LIKE the Silmarillion. But, I think it’s self-evident that it closely followed the world-building that Tolkien had laid out. And no one tried to pretty it up. It was *truly* chronicling, lol. And J.R.R. was reportedly a voluminous note-taker So, it all tracked for me.)
The main complaint about Dune I’ve heard (from many younger readers) is how they’re put off by the omniscient POV. It’s maybe worth noting that genre-bending and omniscient/experimental story-telling was more the norm in the Golden Era of SF. So that was the fertile soil in which Tolkien and Herbert planted their works.
Nowadays, modern readers have been conditioned to only accept a very narrow story-telling style (shifting 3POV). For example, one promotion I participated in earlier this year listed “first-person” as a sub-genre. A SUB-GENRE! (lol)
Thanks again!
Thanks for reading Mark, and for the great feedback!
The shifting 3POV is a style that I have come to dislike because it spends so much time skimming the surface for a multitude of characters instead of giving me the deepest of dives into one or two characters. Unfortunately, that's the M.O. for contemporary science fiction and fantasy. First person nescient is the most powerful for a character driven story, and my favorite, but extremely difficult to write for speculative works.
I started Dune once back in college and didn't finish; I really need to get going on it again, as I do have the whole set now. I take his point about the dangers of the superhero, although that's awkward for me since my primary genre is superhero fic, except for the angel stories. Hm.
As superheroes are regarded, Paul is a bit of an anomaly. However, all superheroes today follow a similar path and are essentially all powerful. There are no real stakes and it's one reason I loathe modern takes on Superman. Generally, I don't mind the concept of superheroes, but I find that movies like Chronicle or Brightburn, which aim to explore a deeper, human response to gaining superpowers better serve the genre. If you have recommendations for books or stories like those, I would love to hear them.
Dr. Horrible's Sing-along Blog, maybe? That's the only one I can think of offhand, aside from the animated films Red Son and Injustice, which are really alternate takes on Superman (Superman in the USSR, Superman going rogue, etc.).
I might need to think on this and write something myself. Hmm.
I started reading Dune about 8 years ago and stopped at around the time of Paul and Jessica's flight to the desert. Maybe perhaps because I didn't like the chronicling nature of the story (although I did love the chapter epigraphs and use them in my own books).
Going into the movie 2 years ago, I thought "at least I will get to see the rest of the story," not realizing that Part 1 meant they would stop just a bit farther than I got when reading. Those expectations aside, I enjoyed it more than reading the book.
There is a lull in the middle in the section you're talking about that drags some. The story does have some balance issues in that regard. The last 50 pages were as deep as the entire previous 500, and toward the end I thought there was no way Herbert could wrap it up, but he does.
I started watching the most recent Dune Part 1 as well, but I didn't like the actors who played Paul and Jessica. They gravelly whisper a lot of lines and it just didn't do it for me.
Thanks for reading and commenting, Jon!
This reminds me I ought to reread Dune. I had intended on reading the first three books but got sidetracked (so it goes when I have a million books on my TBR...) But the first book is phenomenal, and your review is spot-on.
Also, there was a Dune game, came out in the early 2000s. It was terrible. I think there were others that were less bad, but that game in particular was no good. I don't even remember the name of it.
When I mentioned the game, I did go looking and found the same one. It does look terrible. 🤣 I can imagine though that a game where one could use spice to travel to worlds like Giedi Prime or Caladin would be pretty sweet!
Thanks for reading, Lisa!
There's definitely untapped potential with Dune and video games!
I first read the original Dune in the mid 1970s and loved it. I have read it several times since. I still love it, but not quite as much as the first time I read it.
It's interesting how our station in life can affect how we receive a book. I've got a few from my childhood like that, where they don't land like they used to, but still have a special place in my heart.
That’s a great, in-depth review. I was unfamiliar with those quotes from Herbert. I have yet to read the follow up books to Dune, but that will happen. The audiobook version of Dune is an excellent production.
Thank you, David, and thanks for recommendation on the audio. I'm going to check that out from our library and give it a listen.
I appreciate that you list off the parts you didn't like in a way where I could go 'that sounds perfect for me.' A lot of this reminds me of Lord of the Rings in the framing as a history and the dangers of power. Should read Dune sometime.
With my own setting I've engaged with similar themes, in particular with the dragons. Complete with one of them rejecting suggestions of becoming padishah because he thinks having an immortal monarch is inherently dangerous.
Thanks, William. From reading your fiction and story framing devices on The Warthog Report, I think you would really enjoy Dune. It's one of those strange concoctions that is listed as science fiction and has futuristic elements, but reads almost entirely like a fantasy novel. It's another part of its allure that I didn't mention in the review, but that I quite enjoyed.